What should be done with the Lister Block?

With construction costs rising to restore the Lister Block, the question   is how much is it worth? Should the building be demolished or restored at all cost?

Comments

[SusanL]

Homeless people have to come first. Taxpayers should be forced to payup and do their share for the less fortunate. The Listerblock could be a beacon of hope to restore the dignity of Hamilton's needy.

[Tim]

It's strange how a building can become a democratic issue. There is a waiting game occurring between private developers and the city. When a developer has money and a plan, the city is in. Otherwise, the city's implied attitude is that it doesn't concern them.

There are empty buildings all over the place, yet new construction is happening on King near Denningers and at the corner of King and Main (a five story building). The difference between new construction and renovating old is minimal with regards to use-value. So why is private enterprise willing to take these risks? Is it simply on speculation?

In contrast to these examples, there is a new Federal building that went up on Bay Street. It seems odd that this unremarkable building goes up with hardly any publicity while the Lister sits and sits. I'd like to see the Lister renovated. The problem in the past and the problem now is that anyone who takes on this project is subject to so much scrutiny that it becomes impossible to succeed while satisfying all the interested parties. In botched cases like this, the city should step in to make it happen.

If the city is interested in building repurposing, why doesn't their development department work with private financing, appropriate a single abandoned building at a time, renovate it by tendered contract, and market the space. When the project becomes financially sustainable, they can move on to another. Banks are willing to fund new construction because there is something to repossess if the financing goes bad, whereas an abandoned building offers nothing by means of repossession. If that is indeed the way it is, then an alternative means of financing will need to be found if the city or anyone else is interested in renovating abandoned buildings. Finally, and in contrast to new construction, alternative models of success are going to need to be found for these kinds of projects.

[Sandra]

hmag:

I don't recall suggesting that the Lister Block should become a parking lot. My point, simply stated, is this city has got to get off its butt. Herritage buildings are wonderful. I actually would love to see preservation, I just don't want to have to wait through years of bickering.

BTW, the parking lot is not that bad to look at :)

But you raise a good point. I am always amazed and frakly puzzled when people complain about the price of parking in Downtown Hamilton. There is no other city in Canada where parking is so cheap. Hamiltonians seem to have an attitude of entitlement that leads them to believe that they shouldn't have to pay for anything. Not even a fair price.

[Dave]

Hamilton still keeps being the big little city that CAN’T.

I love old architecture, having been in the general contracting business for over 25years, working in a firm with our own Architectural and Engineering staff we too on occasion run across the situation where new is less then repair/restore. And with being Scottish it doubly breaks my heart to not be able to restore.

I also have watched LIUNA, has everyone forgot what they did for the old decrepit train station on James Street? They brought us a great facility restored to its old glamour and they are making money with it while providing a facility in the core that many of us “Suburbanites” drive down town to.

I am most certain if there was a feasible option to do anything to the Lister Block involving the restoration they would have been headed in that direction long ago and they would be sitting back making money on it already as opposed to spending money trying to find a way to restore and bend to the bleeding hearts and small minded council.

The Haida was a project that was deemed to be able to be saved, those who wanted to save it went out and raised the money, and now it is docked in Hamilton Harbour. At least my financial contribution to it was voluntary not through my taxes.

This City keeps turning away new enterprise, Colgate Palmolive, Maple Leaf, Casino HamiltonView, the bleeding heart was a casino in Jackson Square would bring drug dealers, prostitution to the core, take a nighttime walk around the casino in Niagara Falls, then around our downtown core, also compare economic development growth of the two cities, doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out the facts.

Private enterprise is the lifeblood of any community, however in Hamilton we keep trying to taint the blood with nay saying.

[Helen Highwater]

Ironically Jason, it is you who is living in the past, advocating a model of urban renewal that has been out of date for nearly half a century. Those of us who care about the future of this city understand the importance of heritage buildings in attracting investment. Since I doubt you'll take my word for it, perhaps you'll take the word of one of the architects who conducted a peer review of LIUNA's Heritage Impact Assessment:

"It is increasingly the consensus among urban theorists that the preservation of heritage structures is a key component in preserving the vitality of urban core areas and of local urban economies for a variety of reasons. The preservation of heritage monuments adds a dynamic nature to the quality of core areas, which cannot be achieved by the construction of all new buildings. This is more appealing to visitors and tourists whose typical desire is to vist heritage areas rather than modern districts."

If you ran for council, it wouldn't be a sign of change, but sadly a sign of business as usual.

[hmag]

Wow Jason - a little angry?

I think this was said before - but if you don't have anything constructive to say - perhaps you should stay out of the conversation.

It also shows your ignorance if you've only recently heard of the Lister Block.

Destinations in the downtown area for you and the family to check out:

- Art Gallery of Hamilton
- the galleries of James North
- waterfront
- Hamilton Farmers' Market
- Central Library
- Take a tour of Whitehern or Dundurn
- Grab a fair trade coffee at Skydragon or Freeway
- Explore the many small independent businesses located here

I could go on...

[Paul sexton]

I am sooooo tired of all the bickering and posturing and lip service regarding the lister, what the hell is wrong with you people? It's the biggest eyesore in the entire city, and has been for ten long years! Here is an idea, tell liuna to go to hell, approach both the prov. and fed. govs. and ask them to put their money where their mouths are regarding the funding of trade apprenticeships and turn this debacle into a world standard training initiative! It would take perhaps ten well chosen experts to oversee one hundred or so apprentices to completely restore the building at perhaps 1/10th the cost of using contractors, and you have the immeasurable bonus of turning out 100 highly skilled tradesmen at a cost of, in the bigger picture, nothing! Given the fact that this city needs to find a new "core" industry, given the fact that steel is no longer viable, who knows, this could lead to the rebirth not to mention the rebuilding of the entire core paid for by outside sources!

[Jason Daigneault]

No Helen, let's keep asking people like you that live in the past. This city is falling apart and we need to do something for the future. I can honestly tell you, there is NOTHING in the core that will make me go downtown. That will include a redeveloped "heritage" office building. I can see it now, "Hey wife and kids, do you want to go downtown and look at a nice old looking office building?"

Can't wait for the first Saturday afternoon after it's done!

Build something that will bring people downtown (a destination spot)and help this city!

And you should ask people like me (that are not familiar with this building) what to do with "the Lister".lol.

When I pay my property taxes each month, it's not with Monopoly money! (which of course are going up again this year)

I think I should run for council. Time for change.

Please!

[Helen Highwater]

Great idea. Instead of asking all those old people, let's ask the people who've never heard of the Lister and don't even know where it is. That oughta raise the level of the discourse.

[Jason Daigneault]

I am a 32 year old life long Hamiltonian. I have NEVER even heard of the lister block before this renovation "issue". I couldn't even tell you where it is. I recently read a survey that the spectator did on what people would like to see done with the building. For the majority, people wanted it restored. The problem I have with the survey is that everyone they asked was over 50 years old. Of course they want it restored. They remember the glory days of past. PLEASE in the future (spectator), try taking a larger cross section of a true demographic of the city's population. Most people in my age bracket don't care about it and want to see the city's resources focused elsewhere.

You want to improve the core? Try asking the generation that is the future in this city. Give us something we want, like an entertainment district or a casino (you want to lower our taxes rather than continually raising them) Hello, am I missing something? Won't this bring money into the city? Oh ya, when council asks the "people" if they want a casino, they ask the same people that want old worthless buildings restored.

All I know is my money on the wekend is not going anywhere near downtown.

Maybe have some fun in Niagara?

[Kyle Skinner]

Why not use this building to develop something that creates a great deal of new revenue for the city? Perhaps a charity Casino in the theme of Brantford?

It could be restored with an historical flair ala old Las Vegas, and restaurants and lounges could be developed on the first floor of the building.

There is clearly a lot of bad that goes with the whole Casino concept that need not be discussed here, but certainly our downtown core cannot get any worse. The extra money would perhaps pay for the extra policing required downtown for such a venture, not to mention clean up the mess in the Gore Park area.

[Helen Highwater]

Those of you who have suggested that the Lister will somehow crumble and fall apart on its own should know that several independant architects and engineers have conducted reviews of the Lister and found it to be structurally sound. Unlike the Tivoli, it was built with a structural steel framework. Unless LIUNA comes in the night with a wrecking ball, like Tony DePasquale did with the Dynes, the Lister will be standing long after any ersatz 'replica'.

[Diana]

Restore it. We need to try and keep the beauty of what Hamilton once was alive.

[Diana Powell]

Restore it. I would hate to see a beautiful piece of culture torn down and broken to pieces.

[Rich Gelder]

Councillor Bratina:

Residence for students? Who's paying their rent, and what will it be? If market forces are to prevail, then rent would be out of reach for any student. Is the City going to subsidize the rent? Are we going to ask McMaster to susidize the rent?

Sir, you said it all when you suggested the building was privately-owned. Ergo, it should be for any private owner of the building to determine its fate, on their nickel.

[JJ Molnar]

I have to agree with those writers suggesting that the best use is residential - preferably condos. It doesn't make sense, given our 27% downtown office vacancy rate to create more offices at this time. The Spallacci group is to be commended for their new residential development next to Denningers. We certainly need more of that sort of positive risk taking from the private sector with their own money. A little City incentive here is certainly going a long way. As an Urban Geography & Planning grad, I'd like to see a nice healthy mixed use property that blends our elderly with our youngsters - this might just be a pipe dream of mine, but a combination senior residence with a daycare center would serve us well in the core. However, before we start trying to attract more residents downtown, particularly those who might have young families, we ought to give serious consideration to ridding our core area of the halfway houses that litter our adjoining neighborhoods and that let out all their sexual predators and kooks every morning to roam around. I think there are about 500 of these people within walking distance of King & James where I work. Hamilton's allowed itself to become the Provincial toilet bowl for downloading a lot of unpleasant things, those places being just one example. The health of our downtown (Lister Block included) depends so much on having an increase in "after hours" watchful eyes - and I don't mean those that make the B.C. Lions afraid to walk our sidewalks at night after a game.

[ralph]

Come on people give your head a shake, let's look at the big picture this building has been here for a long time and it needs to come down and in my opinion it should be replicated to look the same if not it will just stay empty for another 50 years

[Michelle Hruschka]

LIUNA wants the city to lease the space, as private market will not pay the per square footage rent, never mind the additional rent for common area. If LIUNA was really interested in creating growth in our downtown area, then they would of already started doing something. My question would be why has our city politicans never forced property owners to keep up on property standards years ago, why did the city allow for the degradation of this property? My personal opinion is that we lack vision and too many of those higher income people thwart progress, It is supposed to about the people and people can make change, you know the grassroots. Too bad the city does not listen to those voices, the grassrooots.

[Christopher Redford]

Sorry Sandra (and Joe) - But how will tearing it down solve anything? Whole blocks were torn down for Jackson Square, now languishing in its misery.

Your logic is similar to that of people arguing for a business park near the airport. They readily admit to having no new businesses to go in the proposed park, but preach a hopeful `If you build it they might come' policy. You seem to espouse the inverse - regardless of so much office space now languishing empty in the core, you seem to feel that `If we tear it down [and throw up another], they might come'. And presumably the downtown people you speak of will magically become happier. I doubt it very much.

[hmag]

Sandra -

I and many others have "put up and will not shut up" when in comes to downtown revitalization. I've been in my friend's unit in he Annex Lofts and I gotta tell you - there are a lot of worse things in the world to look at than the Lister in its current state. How about that parking lot to the east of your building - because if LIUNA has its way you'll be looking at one to the South of you. Trust me - more parking lots aren't anything you want more of in that area. But for those folks here in the city who says there isn't any parking in the core (which isn't true) will be happy with more surface parking. Anyone been by the former HMP lately at Bay and Main - no new building - but lots of parking!

This city baffles me.

[Sandra]

Christopher -- I made the comment about non-downtowners -- not Joe. And I stand by it. The majority of the voices I hear on this issue come from outside the core. And I do value our buildings, but I value people more. The city is for and about people, not buildings.

[Sherri]

The Lister Block should be torn down. Its too expensive to lease and too expensive to renovate to lease. How about concentrating on the dozens of other half empty buildings in downtown Hamilton!

[Christopher Redford]

And Joe - I do live downtown and have tried for 15 years to spend half my Christmas shopping dollar in Jackson Square or within a kilometre of it. All three of my record stores died. My sporting goods store died. Three restaurants I frequented when I went to movies died. My Keg restaurant also died. Tearing down the Lister and throwing up yet another steel and glass monstrosity will not make the core prettier. Unless of course you think Jackson Square has made the core prettier than a generation or two ago.

[Christopher Redford]

Keep the Lister!

In the interest of prudent and frugal development, Hamilton's Old City Hall (across from Lister) was demolihsed so Eatons could expand. We know how that turned out. Toronto's Old City Hall (same style)flourishes nightly as a lit-up gem.

Hamilton's old farmer's market was torn down. The Farmer's Market today looks like a concrete bunker and does lousy business. The St. Lawrence Market on Front Street in TO (1850) is an architectural marvel raking in millions. Toronto decided NOT to tear it down in 1971.

The Tivoli Theatre (1924) in Hamilton was allowed to sit til it fell. The Eglinton Theatre in TO (1936) has been beautifully restored and is the proud gem of its area.

The entirety of Jackson Square was built on land expropriated by the municipality in the early 1960s so they could tear down and throw off the yoke of old Victorian Hamilton. They decided to promote business via a giant mall. We know how that one turned out. A no-name brand mall on life support.

I suggest people be careful what they ask for in the name of progress from our municipality. It has an absolutely rotten history of doing the wrong thing, making the wrong decision, and heeding the prognostications of the wrong development trends.

[Sandra]

In all of the moaning and groaning and hand wringing over the Lister Block, I have not heard from anyone who lives downtown.

Well I live downtown, in the Annex Condo (sometimes referred to as Rebecca Lofts) and I am sick of walking past that mouldering eyesore. It is easy to be a preservationist in Westdale, not so easy when you live in the shadow of the that mess. The building has got to go and I frankly don't care if it is preserved or raized. Some of us have put our money where are mouths are when it comes to believing in a revitalized Hamilton core. And we want reasonable progress to be made. Some of us, apparently consider the argument academic and are comfortable talking about this issue until the Lister Block falls in on its self like the Tivoli.

We, all Hamiltonions, need a safe, secure, healthy downtown that we can be proud of. Removing the eyesore and hazard that the Lister has become is a great step.

I don't know who s to blame, but I have to wonder if LIUNA inflated the numbers in order to squash the deal -- all I know is that they should be deeply ashamed of their conduct. Do they need the vacant property tax credits that badly? Along with LIUNA the city government should be ashamed, personally ashamed of themselves, each every one of them. They have a responsibility to lead and they are apparently incapable of doing so. If I did my job the way they do their's, I would be fired.

[Joe]

Big suprise, a union making ridiculous monetary demands and wrecking the entire deal. This is hamiltons building, not LIUNA's building. They just paid some money for the rights to reserve it for a few years. Hopefully they don't ruin it for good during that period.

[H. Murray]

While I do believe that the Lister building should be restored, I don't understand why this building was ever pushed for redevelopment into office space. It's not large enough to offer much space and we already have quite a lot of vacant office space in the downtown core. The historical architecture of the building, along with the commuter-friendly location, would seem far better suited for restoration/renovation into residential and retail space. If you encourage people to LIVE in the downtown core, you then support more retail/commercial spending in the area - unlike the towers full of office workers who all scramble to leave at the end of the work day. This in turn might encourage more developers to make similar use of the many other derelict buildings downtown.

[Vice]

If the Lister Block is not the biggest embarrassment in Hamilton's History, it must be right up there.

To all those who want to save the Lister Block I say "put up and buy the building or shut up".
We taxpayers do not want to pay for any more special interests. What is more important? The previous history of the Lister building (which the majority does not know or care about) or the current and more valid History that it makes everyday that eyesore sits there?

[Living in the Caribbean]

There are so many beautiful architectural buildings in Hamilton that need to be restored and Lister Block is one of them. Hamilton is nothing more than an eye sore, mostly due to all the vacant old buildings. The city has so much potential with great restaurants, live music, and diverse culture. Demolishing these old buildings that developed what Hamilton is today and building parking lots and establishing new buildings doesn’t give a city character. Make this city more visually stimulating to visitors and let them experience all the greatness The Hammer and its history have to offer.

[Stephanie]

Just tear it down and build additional parking for the mall. Half the reason people don't shop downtown is because there isn't enough parking.

[Dave]

The damn city politician's should put a casino in there, Hamilton had a chance at the casino before Niagara falls did for the Old (now run Down Eye sore Eaton centre ) and councils response was Hamilton did not want that kind of people Downtown HA, so instead we have no one down town and an old Lister Block that has cost taxpayers here in Hamilton millions to decide what to do with , this sounds to familiar , has any one else heard of the Red Hill Valley fiasco?????

[Ed]

If Hamilton city council had got its act together 25 years ago when the Lister first became empty, it would have been able to be restored. This city has the worse case of hurry-up-and-wait syndrome of any other Canadian city. Look how long it took to complete the Red Hill Creek Expressway and how much more it ended up costing.
It's a shame to see another part of Hamiltons heritage destroyed. Those that think it should go appear to have no interest in the roots/history of this city. As long as it's all shiny new glass and metal, to hell with the past.

[Aaron]

Here's what should be done with ALL of the eyesore derelict,decrepid old buildings, simple remove them and start NEW. Some times the only way to move forward is FORGETTING the past, history is nice but this isn't really historic or anything someones going to go WOW over 20 years from now or even 100 years from now, it's a building nothing more nothing less. tear it down, save the brick scrap the rest and start a 3 teired building layout with commercial on the ground, office in the middle and condo's on top. A little of everything all in one spot.

[David Witzel]

As far as the Lister building is concerned, let those who now own it absorb the cost and either gain or lose money on their own with whatever they plan on doing with it. The Mayor and councillors already have wasted too much time on this and other things they twiddle their collective thumbs about. Wouldn't it be nicer if the Mayor and councillors actually did some work that was beneficial to the community rather than defend themselves over what they either have or haven't done in their job? Calling each other names gets nothing done in council and neither does supporting only your own "pet" projects rather than doing what is best for the city as a whole! But then again, the Council might have to call in outside to help in consultation as it appears this council doesn't know in which direction to go, except the wrong one! Thanks, Dave

[Groaning Again]

Two points regarding the comments on restoration being too expensive above:
First, the owners (and the City) have allowed the Lister to rot, obviously adding difficulties and cost to any potential renovation, and;
Second, to my knowledge, no independent assessment of restoration costs has ever been conducted. Therefore, we have no idea if the LIUNA / High Rise figures are valid or not (different independent observers suggest they may not be).
Things don't bode well for the Royal Connaught which is owned by some of the same characters and starting to show signs of neglect as well (easy entry points for vandals, unrepaired windows, etc.).
Property owners in the core and elsewhere need to be held accountable for letting their holdings rot and not rewarded for doing so (as with HMP).

[Donald Lester]

So much hype over the Lister block, it's seems as though this icon has become all that is wrong with Hamilton. While time and effort on decreasing
the 20% of poverty evaporates.
Perhaps the City should simply step aside until the Lister crumbles and order the owners to remove the rubble. The city can get back and focus on facilitating sustainable employment.
To those concerned with history of the Lister block should be more attuned to the progressive history of poverty...an icon that overshadows the Lister block...

[norman reintamm]

Tear it down, and replicate it. This should have been done ages ago.

[James]

humm....there is a lot of other crap buildings in Hamilton that should be torn down. Then again...nobody cares about ANYTHING except money...pathetic. Why not hold on to a historical site??

[bob bratina]

The Lister Block is a fine old building and an ideal candidate for renovation. Its best use in my opinion would be residential, perhaps for students. It has a role in Downtown revitalization, but is not the critical piece. Compare its 60 thousand square feet against the 600 to 800 thousand square feet that could be built on the Board of Education property. The proposal for the Lister Block would simply shuffle employees from one place to another at a cost far exceeding going rates for commercial space Downtown. The McMaster Faculty of Family Medicine proposal would bring hundreds of new employees to the core, plus many thousands of visits to its clinics. In addition two new hotels are being discussed as part of the plan which would provide well over a million dollars in new taxes for the City. The Lister redevelopment would provide no new taxes, and in fact would increase them.

The Lister Block is an old commercial building, privately owned, similar to the old post office building, the Alexandra Square office buildings and the old Eaton's Warehouse. These were all redeveloped at the owner's expense with some assistance from our Downtown Residential Loans Program which provide interest-free loans to assist in financing the projects. These three have become the very successful Staybridge Suites Hotel, the Chateau Royale Condominiums and the Rebecca Lofts....all successfully occupied and all paying significantly more in taxes than when they were derelict.

There are many examples of buildings like the Lister that have been successfully and economically renovated to residential use; the Kaufman Rubber Building in Kitchener is a good example, the Bauer Lofts in Waterloo another. If the Lister block were to become a City office building, those employees would be relocated from other space, and would leave for home after 5:00 p.m. If it became condominiums or apartments there would be more people living downtown, animating the streets and supporting the stores and restaurants....exactly what we're trying to achieve through our Downtown Renewal process.

The Lister is important to our Downtown, but so is the old Federal Building, much more prominently located, and more than 3 times the size at about 200 thousand square feet, with 66 thousand cars driving by every day. Private money with some government funding is financing the new residential project beside Denningers, over 100 thousand square feet in size, and very visible from both King and Main. As a municipality we must be seen by the development industry to be fair to all, and leasing a private building for 20 years at rates much higher than average commercial rates in the City would not be seen as such. We're quite comfortable in the old Eaton's Centre for $9 dollars a square foot as compared to the $37 dollars suggested in a renovated Lister Block.
Bob Bratina

[J Keast]

Tear it down. The cost to fix it, is way too high. Hamilton council scares me.
I can't understand why it took so long for it to be dropped. At $24 sq. ft. I was pissed !

[Vera Papadopoulos]

Hamilton should save this Historical Building. I can't understand why this continues to come back. Is Liuna controlling? This must stop. Hamilton is a beautiful city but we do not know how to preserve and promote. I am a Hamiltonian and grew up on King St.E. The Councillors should take a trip to other cities like Halifax and see the Historical buildings that have been renovated.
Of course, it's going to cost money, but we spend tax money for other unimportant matters. Let's get our act together. I believe if this building is restored it will make owners of other buildings to renovate.

[Groaning Again]

The folks who publish Vanished Hamilton will have lots of material for future editions as long as this crew is in charge. Sad, very sad.

[Tim Jacobs]

The city should simply cut LIUNA out of the equation now. Reacquire the Lister Block from LIUNA and then sell it to a serious developer, like Harry Stinson, and heap the tax cuts and other incentives on this person.

[MP]

I think the Lister Block should be demolished...why revitalize a building that:

1- Is too costly to refurbish;

2- To expensive to lease?

The City needs to make (here it comes!) TOUGH decisions on the appearance of this city.

You can't attract new businesses if the downtown core looks like it was hit by a few tornadoes just become some historical nut wants to preserve a crumbling, window-smashed, pigeon-infested building that his/her grand-parents once operated their fine bone china or hardware store.

I'd rather see parking lots than eye-sores.

[Dave Baldry]

Do you think the developers really want to restore it? It is decrepit to say the least. Maybe they want to make renovations so expensive that they will be able to do what they really want (and what should be done) and rebuild!

[Tom Hansen]

Isn't this a case of developers trying to rip off the city?

They know that any other tenant would laugh at $37 per sq. ft. But our incompetent city councillers might be foolish enough to cave into their demands.

Just tear it down.