Is a stadium deal likely?

The controversy over the location of the so-called Pan Am stadium is growing, with new community-led opposition to the east mountain location. The issue has polarized the community, in much the same way as the Red Hill Parkway controversy did. Do you think a deal is possible, or even a good idea? Should the city stick to its guns on the west harbour location, especially in light of news about millions in road upgrades needed for the east mountain option? Or should the city change its course and put the stadium where Bob Young wants it to be?

Comments

[Stuart]

This new stadium development could be a good opportunity to put forward a proposal for a Hamilton based professional soccer club. Possibily for the MLS or for a Canadian based soccer league.

Would anyone object or agree with this idea?

[Gary]

Bratina has done a damn good job at trying to fix this mess that was created by a MORON MAYOR that we fools all voted for! Lets get on with it and put this sad story to rest already! And next election lets get rid of the fools on city council that should not have been voted back to city council in the first place!!! Especially Sam "LOOK AT ME" Murella.

[Gord Baker]

With operation costs of $50,000,000 over 10 years and the idea of building a stick and ball venue using Future Fund money, the entire Pan Am Scam Stadium and Velodrome proposals should be cancelled immediately.
The wrong venue in the wrong city at the wrong time.
Council MUST get out of this mess now. Any Liberal Funding is also more of our money being wasted on a facility used by a very very small minority of the populace.
No Stadium, No way.
Gord. Baker

[Sharon Willis]

I have tried to reach Scott Mitchell and Bob Young, to explain to them, a plan I have, to raise 1 1/2 million dollars for wherever the stadium is built.I'm just an ordinary citizen of Hamilton, and yet no one will talk to me about raising this kind of money??
Why is that ??

[ErnestPayne]

Excellent solution. All you have to do is look at buffalo with its monstrously expensive stadium to realise that Hamilton is light years ahead with a refurbished stadium.

[Joan Douglas]

Confederation Park is sitting there to have a stadium built. Common sense says stay within the region!!!

[Lawrence]

@Danielle. I too wondered about using Scott Park High School as a parking garage. It's owned by an international business man and now when you drive by, it says 'National Art Institute' or something to that affect. Parkview Secondary on Balsam might be closing however. No reason we couldn't build a parking garage there even closer to the stadium, and pave over Brian Timmis Stadium. It is approx. 160,000 sq ft which would hold approx. 1,000 cars.

[Lawrence]

It's too bad the Spec didn't write more about Ivor Wynne. Yesterday's Letter to the Editor regarding the history at IWS and how Green Bay also embraced their history like Boston and Chicago. Sure, this is the CFL, but what benefit would creating a historic stadium experience north of the border have for Hamilton, the CFL, and the rest of Canada? The Forum is gone. Maple Leaf Gardens is gone. What's left after Ivor Wynne?

[Danielle]

Here is a thought. How about the City buys out Scott Park Secondary School, build a big parking garage, make a walk way over Cannon Street and fix up the Stadium we all ready have??? This would say the City a ton of many and make everyone happy. Why do we need a new Stadium when we have one!!!

[j. McAuley]

If Hamilton looses the stadium, conference center, new housing and Pan Am games this would be indeed a lost opportunity, not to mention jobs and the influx of young residents these facilities would create.

It's not can we afford this new development, it's can we afford not to. Get ready for more boarded up buildings run down neighborhoods.

[Ted De Luca]

STADIUM.I cannot believe that our city fathers cannot come up with a site that everyone can live with,especially the ti-cats,after all are they not the principal tenants that this is all about?If city council screws this up,our city will be the laughing stock of the whole country,who cannot believe we can't get together,if we lose this opportunity with the panam games do you think there will another one for the next 30 years,I think not..I urge our "NEW"city councel to come up with solution,even a brand new location,if necessary to get this done,if we lose the ti-cats most people in this city will never forgive you!Mayor Bratina,being the new mayor you must find a way to get this done,Sam Merulla,to me, he is just politician looking for what he perceives as a popular position.mr. negativity as far as I'm concerned.Wake upbefore it's too late.Ted De Luca

[Kathy Finlay]

I drove through the Longwood proposed site (south of Aberdeen) - it could be magnificent - guess it's one of our hidden treasures; hope it is considered.

[Kathy Finlay]

I have some pictures of Barton & Locke St traffic today during the Santa Parade. The city came to a stand still down here for 2 hours. Perhaps a tunnel will need to be built for traffic if the Bay/Queen is chosen/

[Renessa Bak]

it is absolutely ludicrous to even think of putting it in this populated area. . . would the bayfront park route be turned into a connection to the 403?

[Ken Smith]

Yeah Yeah Bob needs a new Stadium. No problem Bob we the taxpayers will buy it!! Because the tiger cats do soooo much for the community Is there a food drive at the game tonight? NOOOOO because Bob Young doesnt give a damn. When I go to the game tonight and see he workers outside peddling merchandise instead of collecting donations this close to Thanksgiving Im sure it will make it that much easier to deny my childrens requests for 30 and 40 dollar crap that will just end up in the back of the closet anyway

[Russell Coale]

Why has there not been any discussion on the stadium price. Several known individuals in the city have been reported saying that there are many stadiums built lately with 25000 or more and at a much lower price than has been quoted here.
Away over 100 million is ridiculous.

[Shirley]

I am a season ticker holder, therefore a little biassed. BUT---let's get real. Why can't they work together? I too am tired of hearing about this. Why was Confederation Park eliminated before even making it to the table. Why does a new site suddingly appear when the crunch is on. COUNCIL IS PLAYING GAMES AND WE ALL KNOW THAT. We will have a new and hopefully more mature council soon.

[Pat Ielasi]

Stadium and Pan Am Games
• NO NEW STADIUM is needed and still can have a SUCESSFULL Pan Am Games.
• We can still host the Pan Am Games, showcase the city, and make it profitable for many businesses at the same time, without a new stadium, a stadium that is not affordable to build or to maintain. We can ill afford this massive capital expenditure.
PROPOSAL AND BENEFITS
- If we host the games at the Ron Joyce Stadium at McMaster University, we can house the athletes at the residence.
- We can have different events throughout the city during the games
i.e. festivals, art exhibits, scattered throughout our city, provide tours of the waterfalls in our city, and provide free shuttle services to each of the destinations, this would benefit McMaster University, and many Businesses that wish to participate at the festivals, at the same time as showcasing the diverse culture, talented local artists and musicians and beautiful city we have.
What do we do with Ivor Wynn Stadium?
• First we sit and talk to Bob Young and find out if he is committed to staying in Hamilton….
If he is then
- We apply to make Ivor Wynn Stadium a historic land site….. In doing so we would be eligible to receive funding from higher levels of government to aid in the cost to repair the stadium.
- If Mr. Young is not interested in playing at Ivor Wynn Stadium he can purchase land at his expense and build a stadium at a location suitable to him….
- In which case Ivory Wynn Stadium should be sold, and that land could be developed to bring in much needed property tax revenue.

• Money can better be spent on programs that service our elderly such as seniors for seniors, meals on wheels , community living, Freedom House, children with challenges , and poverty and well as other capital projects such as fixing the sewer system that is in desperate need of repair

[Liz W.]

Hamilton cannot afford the games. They can't even stop all the flooding that occurs in the city when we have significant rainfall.

[Mike s]

This stadium debate is a joke. Whats wrong with ivor wynne? This is CFL football we are talking about. Hamilton does not need a new stadium. What hamilton needs is infastructure. Fix the damn roads. Demo all the run down vacant buildings and clean the city up. Hamilton has far more important things to take care of then building a stadium. Look at the air canada center. The leafs get a new arena and ticket prices go thru the roof. The same will happen with the cats. $20 beer, $125 seats. spend the money on the city, job growth... not on a useless stadium.

[j hickey]

how is it that we hamiltionians cannot see that having a stadium at the habourfront is a must. I can see people gathering in hess village walking down to the game. the grey cup festivities a short walk from our beautiful waterfront stadium yet all bob young cares about is the signage revenue from a stadium seen from the highway and the money he can make. let's do whats right for he city and all of it's citizens

[Lisa]

The three things that should come out of this PanAm bid are a stadium, a pool and a velodrome-not necessarily in that order. The sites for these need not be in the same place and the expense can be more creatively financed if we were to get on with it instead of commissioning more studies. Each of these venues has its place and its user demographic. To think that you can just plop a venue on vacant land is naive. To think you can finance a rebirth of a neighborhood with a huge stadium, even more naive. The waterfront has an artsy feel and should be developed in that way; a large stadium meant to house a certain type of spectator is better placed in a location that has ample avaialability to grow in future but can sustain itself in the short-term. A velodrome would seem a smarter choice for a waterfront re-birth. The stadium location should be near transportation and infrastructure that suits its users and will contribute to auxilliary business to those nearby vendors. That infrastructure is alive and growing on the East Mountain. The pool is desperately needed as the local swimmers observe increased pool demand with concurrent increases in pool shutdowns due to aging facilities. A McMaster site for a pool cannot facilitate the mass user base with the existing parking and lack of immediate business contact in that location. An innovation park location might still fetch assisted finance from MAC but, the smarter move is to locate it on the existing Hamilton mountain location where land is ready and plans for a smaller pool can be quickly redesigned to facilitate a/the larger PanAm venue. When will the councillors finally get the lead out and make the decision to move forward. These are business decisions that should be made based on business models and not swayed by freindships or interest groups. Your first commitment is to the taxpayers and you have already wasted enough time and money bargaining and bantering about locations. Do the math, make the decisions and position all three of these venues appropriately where they can exist now and in the future to sustain themselves by their location. Making decsions about a stadium as if to revitalize a neighborhood cannot be accomodated in the time frame required for aciton on the PanAm facilities. Get it in gear, make the decision and start digging!

[Brian S.]

Still waiting to see documentation supporting his theory that he will lose seven million a year if the stadium is at the west harbour. Oh, that's right, there is no proof is there, Mr. Young. Now death threats against the mayor. C'mon people get serious. It's a stadium, not a life or death issue.

[Brian S.]

To the outsider. I have lived my whole life on the mountain,but completely agree with you. I am embarassed as a Hamiltonian to listen to some of the comments coming from mountain dwellers. I heard a guy on the radio yesterday say that the stadium should go on the mountain because that's where all the affluent people are. Give you're head a shake! I have my own business and work down by the west harbour every day. My wife and i often go down to the waterfront for a stroll and an icecream. It is gorgeous, and if more people went down and saw it, they might get on board for a west harbour stadium. Please don't think that all of us mountain dwellers are ignorant. I for one know what a hidden gem the west harbour is, and the people are great too!

[Brian S.]

To Pauly. All of us that want Scott Mitchell fired know that he is Bob Young's puppet, but there are ways to conduct yourself in public, and he comes across as a bully, and that reflects on Bob Young, and the organization.

[Vice]

To me now, its pretty plain to see. Who writes a letter to the City and names a mayor by his first name? Is this guy still in the 6th grade? Bob has pinned all his hopes now on making Eisenberger the fall guy (and im no Eis fan myself) make him look so bad he will lose the next election. Then Mr Y will feel as he can save face and come back to the city saying he feels comfortable dealing with X(New Mayor). The sad part is, The City is now slowly ridding itself of this Pan Am fiasco (another few councillors have changed votes). There wont be any new stadium. We will fix up Ivor Wynne to min standards. Bob can sell his team to the newest white night (Katz) for all the ticats are worth on paper - Zero.

[Outsider]

I'm not from around Hamilton, or the GTA, or Ontario. I moved here from a more than beautiful landscape in the Rocky Mountains to start my family and a 'real' life with my husband. It took me quite some time to become used to this city, the landscape of what you like to call lower Hamilton and the 'Mountain' of Hamilton. It's been over 6 years that we've made this place our home and never....EVER would I want to move beyond my Northwest neighborhood, especially to the suburbs of the mountain. I have read enough comments from people putting down the downtown area, and you call yourselves Hamiltonians? Have you even been down to Pier 4 park lately? Have you had the chance to stroll next to the waterfront, watch the sailboats, the tourists on the Trolley, the kids riding their bikes on the trails? This area is going up, and if you don't want to come down here, that's your perogative. We don't need your 'kind' here. Enjoy your box stores and highways and cookie cutter houses. My third child will be born in West Hamilton, and he or she will learn about diversity and hopefully will never know about how people in their hometown have a 'hate on' for their own hometown. Shame on you.

[Patrick Moore]

@ Vice - thank you for the link, a very revealing article.
Although it may seem that we are moving forward with a vision for a future Hamilton, some of the comments from the usual suspects lead us to the 'one step forward - two steps back' mission statement that had typified Hamilton in what we perceive to be based on past decisions or 'waffling'.
It is evident that with huge sums of 'free money from the taxpayers' available, there are those who will use predictable tactics and finger pointing to instill some sort of fear in the decision maker's minds in an attempt to get their way.
Then there are the screaming horde of their supporters, with the perception that every decision, every statement is a personal issue.
I have been around sports long enough to understand the logic of those thinkers, as along with any successes, there are the screaming horde - my friend calls it 'crabs in the bucket'.
Think of it as the latest council decision on the stadium location. With all of the evidence that was presented at the meeting, and it was a very thorough meeting, the council made an informed decision - then along come the crabs in the bucket, wanting to latch on, using as many negative comments as their limited vocabulary will allow, and pull the lot back down - back into the bucket with the screaming horde.
People who use words like 'diatribe' and vague phrases such as 'in a heartbeat' and with every post, insult any and every member of council who just can't see it their way, those who look to a better Hamilton, rather than handing over 'free money from the taxpayers' to the money grubbers. Those councillors apparently 'represent everything that is WRONG with Hamilton'
Let's move forward Hamilton, and finally ignore the crabs in the bucket who seem to be more intent on telling their 'war stories' to their buddies over beers, on how they had a hand in 'winning the day' over a structure and not a community.

[Vice]

This is Bang on:

www.torontosun.com/sports/football/2010/08/11/14994811.html

[Pauly Walnuts]

For all you people who are saying that Scott Mitchell should be fired, I have one question - who do you think Scott Mitchell is representing? Scott is doing his job. The Ti-Cats have taken a stance and Scott is the public face of the team. He is stating the club's position, not his own. It is obvious that quite a few people do not know how business works. That explains how Hamilton gets stuck in these awkward situations. Anybody care to explain a business plan for the west harbour stadium? I have yet to come up with a viable one. My prediction - Hostco pulls the plug on the Hamilton events. Kudos to Ron Foxcroft for saying what needs to be said. My Hamilton includes the East Mountain!

[Vice]

Anyone who is ok with the stunt Bob Young has pulled, please tell me where you live - I will have a banana in my pocket and demand you hand over all your money!
ARE YOU PEOPLE INSANE?????
Did anyone witness Chamberlains (a guy whos prob made more $ than Bob) comments about holding the Citys plan on one hand (holding a numerous page report) and Bob Youngs plan in the other (empty hand).
People, its doing deals like Bob Young wants us to do for him that we are in this crazy situation, not the ticats situation but our entire terrible revenue base. He wants to take a hi yielding revenue potential area, we pay the extra to accomodate him, AND he will still lose $.
Why hasnt Bob Young put this team up for sale now? Has anyone not asked this question? Im sure he can get another CFL franchise for free if he wants to go to Quebec. The CFL has people lining up to buy teams dont they? I mean Why else would Braley own 2? BTW, whomever voted for Brad Clark, especially after he lied to you about that road to the link - You should have your head examined. This guy is the worst human being you could ever have to represent you! Hamilton owns the Ticats - as BY says himself, he is just a care taker. OK Bob, you can leave now- you havent left us much better than when you got here. YOu can sell us the team back for $1

[doug]

I worked at Queen and Barton for 10 years. Our company left town for Burlington because there was better access to highways while red hill & the Linc were still in the planing stage ( of course that went on for 40 years )
Ivor Wynne is a much accessible site from all directions
LOOK AT A MAP

If by some weird chance they build a stadium at West Harbour remember the word
GRIDLOCK
By the way mayor Fred when at the port authority said the harbour wasn't suitable for a stadium

[nick]

Dear Mr. Young:

I got to know you as a RED CAP programming guru, the people of Hamilton enjoyed the way that you never tried to re invent the wheel, but worked hard to perfect it. I never got to know you as a quiter. The choice was there, west harbour the day you bought the cats back in '04. The commonwealth games wer on the table, what a way to ereward the guy who safed the cats by giving him a stadium at the West harbour.

Today you say it will never set sale. To me you decided to quit. You don't see a vision there, even though it's not build, not one cheer out of the stands. Mr. Young i guess you have something us hamiltonians don't have a crystal ball.

The city fathers did their homework too and were advised the the West Harbour would be a success.

Your loyal ticat fans were split on the 2 sites. 52% to 48%. But you forgot one thing Mr. Young, not one fan turned their back on you, we didn't say this site or that site or else. We too want a new stadium Mr. Young so we too can fill the seats and let out a big roar where ever the site was. Either by the lake where the people in argo land can hear us. Or from a Mountain top where the they can hear us from there.

You beleive that the Harbour is a bad site, a catastrophy ready to happen. It is try Mr. Young because you lead to believe that theory. Now you want the people of Hamilton to believe your theory too, without 1 season ticket sold, one shovel in the ground, and not even a proposed sketch of our new home.

We believed you that you were going to build a winner on the field Mr. Young. We are still waiting, we still come to IWS, fight through the neighbourhood, Fight for parking, but not once did we say poor team performance we are not coming the team is a catastrophy. You have your beliefs, the city has theirs of a prosporous downtown where we all can celibrate a team victory.

Not sure about you mr. Young, but i'm excited about getting a new stadium, I will still come see your sub par team by the water, pay over price for a ticket and parking and concessions, will you join me.

So Mr. Young be honest are you a quiter, I have no crystal ball to tell me yes or no, what do you believe. By reading all these blogsd on here of anger, dispair, confusion. I really don't see many saying that they will never come to the harbour except 1 guy, Scott Mitchell. so let build a stadium with 44,999 seat. Knowing Scott will never attend we really wouldn't need that extra seat.

We never quit on you, once we all believe that the harbour is the place you be, you won't need to spend the entire game counting empty seats because I believe there won't be. Once we all believe mr.Young, your coffers will overflow not only with Money but with rabid ti cat fans.

your truly

Nick

[Very Proud]

This is the FIRST time I've been this proud of a city Mayor/Councillors...well except for Brad Clark who is an absolute disgrace.

This truly will go down as the day Hamilton grew up.

As to the question of whether the stadium will ultimately be funded without the tcats...well, no new stadium is 100% better that wasting our future funds on the east mountain location.

Mayor Fred and Councillors - you absolutely made the right decision and we thank you.

[brian]

Reading the winnipeg blue bombers financial statement for 2009 online could probably help give people a idea of how much bob young loses operating the ticats. Their operating expenses for 2009 (which i would bet is very similiar to the ticats) was $14.8 million in 2009 (in 2008 it was $13.4 million) so the ticats probably are in the $14 million range.....but the winnipeg statement says 2.7 million (2009) and 1.7 million (2008) for stadium occupancy....(the ticats pay 3000 dollars per game from my understanding). The winnipeg management revenue (concerts etc more than likely) is $2.2 million. So managing the stadium for the bombers resulted in a 1/2 millon loss for the year. Given the fact the cats pay next to nothing for rent and the city has expenses each game we can basically say the cats get free rent, no matter how you crunch it. So if you go by winnipeg numbers...you can take around 2 million off of expenses (rent) and you get a figure of $12 million to operate the team. In order to lose $7 millon a year at the west harbor (with the same deal they get at ivor wynne would mean you are only generating $5 million in revenue. The winnipeg statement says they got 1.8 million from cfl revenue (tv rights etc). If you added in the ticats getting around 1.5 million maybe more (for concessions, advertising etc)..The cfl revenue and that comes to $3.8 million (round it up to $4 millon). So operating cost of app $12 million ,minus 4 million from the cfl money/concessions/advertising/radio money ..that goes down to $8 million..if these numbers are close...to lose 7 million you are only generating $1 million in ticket sales at the west harbor. We all know what happens when stadiums are built there is a spike in attendance the first 3-5 years but lets go with 20,000. You play 9 home games plus 1 preseason...with total attendance of 200,000 (20 thousand per game). 200,000 x$30 = $6 million. With that im getting a loss of $2 million per yr..even at 20,000 which i have no doubt would average more the first 3-5 years easy at a new stadium. We can't really see how per year the ticats are currently losing but bob young has stated a figure of $30 million (off course that figure is based on the scoreboard etc). I have no doubt you would get crowds of 25,000 at stadium whether you built it at the harbor or east mountain (my objection to the east mountain is the fact it could be $50 million more than the harbor..and you dont build in a park..confederation..with nothing but smokestacks as a view of the city). There is no way he would lose 7 million at the west harbor..its a outright lie/distortion. Every once in awhile i've heard bob young say (you cant have a team in a 15,000 seat stadium) so this 7 million dollar loss per year is based on a 15,000 stadium and not a 25,000 seat one..i dont see any other reason he would say it, or it even been remotely possible. What should happen is bob young,the city and the katz group get together and make a deal. Have the katz group operate the arena, stadium etc with the cats owning the team but enter an agreement any ticat loses would be split 3 ways. If this distortion of 7 million is true..which i dont think it is ..that would be $2.3 million for the 3 partys involved. It would solve alot of problems and make alot of sense and would save the ticats, revitalize downtown and be a win-win for the city.

[somewheretotherightofattilathehun]

It is diatribes like Patrick Moore's (see below)that perpetuates this city's reputation as a JOKE!

Sam Merulla can't embrace any project that doesn't involve his ward. This "Monkey with a Shotgun" is the leader of the fools on council.

Bob Bratina uses his radio job to promote himself, right up until the last day to declare. Then, he goes on sabbatical during the real campaign. That, in a normal city, is a conflict of interest.

Larry DiIanni wants to run again, even after he got his hand caught in the cookie jar with financing irregularites.

Russ Powers decides 11 months into an elected mandate that he wants to run for the Federal Liberals, and refuses to pay for the cost of the by-election HE created by not fufilling his mandate.

Brad Clark skips the entire stadium vote, in order to play both sides of the debate.

Tom Jackson floats harebrained ideas (like the City shovelling residential driveways) because he just can't tell his constituents NO.

Terry Whitehead seals the Pan Am deal by calling for Ian Troop's head on a platter.

This entire lot of clowns have to go in October. Too bad this city is too messed up, because a guy like Ron Foxcroft would clean this city up in a heartbeat....too bad it's past the point of no return.

Anyone that thinks that West Harbour is going to get approved by Hostco needs to have their head examined.

Hamilton doesn't need a second white elephant downtown. Copps Colesium is doing a good enough job!

[Brian S.]

To Nick. I completely agree with you're comments. I sent a letter to Bob Young through customerservice@ti-cats.ca a couple of weeks ago. I have been a season ticket holder for 30 years and have supported the team through alot of bad years. I asked that Mr. Young apologize to the residents of Hamilton for their blackmail tactics and immediately fire Scott Mitchell, who comes across as a pompus arrogant ass. It took a second letter, and me practically begging to get a response, and all they wanted me to do was go on their east mountain website. Bottom line is they couldn't care less about my support for the last 30 years. They only care about their pocket book.

[Patrick Moore]

Members of Hamilton City Council representing the ‘dark side’ as explained by Ron Foxcroft on the ‘big city’ radio station, The Fan.
You are a ‘silly people, a little people’, representing your little wards and putting up stop signs.
By extension, you therefore represent silly people, little people, who in the last election vote for you. The voters, some of whom perhaps worked in factories owned by big businesses, run by ‘big people’, and with their self absorbed, bloated ideals and greed, moved manufacturing out of the country, and now have many of those same voters either without a job, or if lucky enough to find another job, are having a difficult time financially, some who may have to visit the Good Shepherd Centre for help.
. All of the voters in your little wards, however, and concerned for their children’s safety, perhaps from some bloated self described ‘business leader and insider’, accelerating through the little streets in your little wards at high speed, have met with you and asked for you take action.
You had the city workers, other ‘little people’ living in those same ‘little wards’ erect stop signs to slow down the speeders, ensuring that the children can have some sense of safety.
I on the other hand, must not relate to your ideals. I live in a ward, which must be a ‘big ward’, for it is represented by a councillor who, perhaps representing the big, bloated self absorbed, self appointed experts on everything regarding Hamilton, and must have had ‘the force’ on his side, voted against you yesterday. This councillor voted against a Hamilton and area with a vision for the future for the ‘silly people, the little people’. This councillor therefore, must have been swayed to vote for the ‘big people, the bloated people’ who will tell you that you cannot make a decision for our future without the self appointed expert advice that he is going to give you.
Councillors from the ‘dark side’ - citizens of Hamilton living in your little wards, if ever there was a rallying cry to get involved with your city – then yesterdays comments by a self appointed expert on everything Hamilton has to be it. We are far from ‘silly people, little people’ and we can get involved and stay involved, having our community become great - and we don't need this guy to lead us anywhere.
We can and should host the Pan Am track and field competition at West Harbour, which will leave a legacy of facilities for future generations. We should have the pool with that facility, so that our citizens have a another choice, making absolutely the best venue around the area to swim, run, throw, play.
We also need to rid ourselves of unoriginal thinkers.
Other unoriginal quotes from this individual:

Bob Young is a ‘friend of mine’ – Donnie Brasco

‘You are a little people, a silly people' – Lawrence of Arabia

‘We refer to them as being from the dark side’ – Star Wars

Media people please – enough already of this guy !

[somewheretotherightofattilathehun]

I'm just curious....are the losers that prefer the West Harbour site the same bunch of losers that opposed the Red Hill Expressway? Just wondering, that's all. I'm hearing a lot of the same strawman arguements.

I just hope that Hostco makes the decision to pull the plug on the Hamilton part of the Pan Am games before the October election. It might finally wake this city up to the fact that there's a bunch of career politicians sitting in city hall that only care about where their next paycheck comes from.

Fred (I lost the Ti-Cats and the Pan Am games with one decision) Eisneberger put his ego ahead of common sense. He bought into the voices of the clueless, and rammed through the West Harbour.

I just hope that Eisenberger and Council are going to face the music when their decision goes south.

Perhaps this was all a ploy by Eisenberger to wrestle control of the Ti-Cats away from Bob Young. Perhaps Darrel Katz will try and buy the Cats from Young. Perhaps that was part of the deal that brought Katz into the fold...piss off the Ti-Cats so that Katz can buy them and operate them out of a West Harbour stadium.

Ron Foxcroft nailed it yesterday. This council couldn't find their ass with both hands.

[David McFadden]

The Tiger Cats only care about the location of the stadium in order to fill the seats. In spite of all the rhetoric and vitriol there is no guarantee that any of the locations discussed will accomplish this. Oddly, in spite of this uncertainty, Tiger-Cat fans want us to sacrifice the Future Fund, Confederation Park and more than a hundred million additional taxpayers money to Bob Young’s personal site preference but if watching a game means these same fans have to do anything more than waddle to their car, drive to the stadium and waddle to their seat, it is apparently too much effort.
The people that want the team should pay for it. Buy enough tickets and the Tiger Cats will stay. Otherwise they might leave and you’ll have to watch them on TV. The sky won’t fall but our taxes might.

[Cameron Bond]

Hamilton Council repeatedly said Bob Young has put a gun to their heads on this...where I believe it was Council putting the gun to Mr. Young...put your team downtown or else. There was no process....just a dictatorship. Bob Young who has lost 30 million dollars to save this team only deserves to try and make a buck. But council with their pie in the sky ideas and power playing will leave us with yet another "whitle elephant" (Copps Colliseum) in the prestigious ward 2. They are acting more like spoiled children, hoarding all the attractions to one area. Those brown fields in west harbour are better suited to condo's & parks...that is what council should have done, stuck with their set sail plan...not put another large empty nothing watsing more tax dollars. I can only hope the Pan Am commitee will veto council and support the east mountain/confederation option.

[Pauly Walnuts]

Well congratulations to city council for painting yourself into a corner. You have no plan for the future viability of this stadium, which is one of the caveats of the PanAm proposal. Many of you have slagged Bob Young during this process, saying that there was no way that they were going to cave into the demands of a millionaire. Guess what? The only viable course now is to deal with the demands of a billionaire - Daryl Katz. What other options are there? And Katz is cagey enough to realize that council has no where else to turn. Good luck in those negotiations! I was born, bred and raised in Hamilton, but I would never, ever consider running a business anywhere in this city. The short sightedness and small town mindset of this city's council, and apparently quite a few of its citizens, is pathetic. Bob Young is a guy with a proven track record, who has put up millions in his own money, to save a historic franchise and what does he get? A kick in the teeth. For those who say that this is being composed by an associate or employee of Mr. Young, I have never met the man. But I do know of his business dealings. Maybe some of you slaggers should do a little homework and maybe you will change your tune. What is Katz's connection to Hamilton? To him, it is a financial transaction. He knows how to draw in a ridculously huge salary (again, do your homework) and wonder if he even knows the meaning of the word philanthropy. And, by the way, Hamilton includes not just the city core but also Ancaster, Waterdown, Flamborough, Binbrook and Stoney Creek. A lot of people forget about that. Good luck city council. You made your bed, now you have to lie in it. Remember elections are around the corner. My Hamilton includes the East Mountain!

[nick]

Congrats to the city on making a historical decision. as for the 3 that voted against. I respect your decision, but at this time, council needed to show solidarity and unity, put your ego aside and look whats best for the city.

Now, as for the cats, first on their agenda is to FIRE Mitchel.this guy has no vision for the cats or the community. he acts like a spoiled kid at the candy store, don't get what i want, i will not play with you deal. GROW UP!!!!.
He has turned his back against the people that feed him " TI CAT FANS " the fan supported this team through all these poor years. Mr. Young Is this the guy you want to represent you. think about it. You should go after a gut like Pin Ball Clemons, this guy has class, he knows how to speak to public, to fans, and to government. class act all the way. You now need a solution to what Mitchell made as a problem> being a computer guy, every software has its syntax error, you don't scrap the entire program because of it, you find solutions and go forward.

the fans supported you, where they have every right to abandon you, you raised ticket prices, beer and concession prices, and still gave us junk on the field. We still came and cheered our hearts out.

Mitchel track record is evident. Falled expansion to the stats, his dad good for amatuer sports but almost made the CFL extint, you both are poor negotiater.
So Mr young, take a deep breathe your fans are still here, even at the harbour front. think about it

lets get this off the ground 45,000 cheering fans on opening day, visualize it, hear it, sense it. be there.

cheers

[Brian S.]

Political murder! I am a ti-cat season ticket holder, but can't figure out what the ti-cats have been doing over the last number of weeks. First, Bob Young says that the ti-cats will play wherever the city decides to put a stadium. This makes alot of sense. They should be overjoyed that they are going to get a new stadium that is government funded. But wait, now the bizzare begins. The ti-cats pull out a week before the first deadline saying that they won't play at the west harbour throwing everything into kaos. The city council reaches out to them, and they bring in a facilitator who throws the east mountain into the mix. The ti-cats launch a campaign and appear to have at least a 50-50 chance of their site being chosen, but wait, they pull completely out a day before the vote, and threaten to leave the city. City coucil does whats expected and votes in the west harbour. This is where my conspirisy theory kicks in. If the Pan Am games pull out and we lose government funding, we lose the stadium. The mayor and city coucil look terrible. We have lost the stadium and possibly the ti-cats. So we vote out the mayor and council, and new people come in. The ti-cats come back to the table and work out a deal for a stadium where the ti-cats wanted it all along, Confederation Park. Why do the ti-cats keep pulling out? Why have the ti-cats not provided one single document backing up their expert claims against the west harbour? I will tell you why. There are major forces, and i think that Ron Foxcroft is one that are trying to get Dianni or some yet unknown person elected to meet their political needs, and Bob Young has gone along fueled by under the table promises. My friends, you have just witnessed a well thought out political murder!!!

[Todd]

So City Council has made their decision. Recent past shows how this city has lost Stelco, Harvester, Proctor and Gamble, Camco an NHL franchise and now the Tiger-Cats. Eisenberger, Brattina, Morelli, Jackson, Whitehead, Collins et el will now be spoken in the same disgusting breath as other major murderers of Hamilton like Evelyn Dick and Jon Rallo. Sleep well!!!

[Adam DeMelo]

What a colossal mistake this is going to be. City council shouldn't be praised just because a decision was made. Hamiltonians are so use to decisions taking years to accomplish, this makes it seem like a positive thing. Oh how the WH is a terrible choice. Half of the apparent parking spaces they claim are within 700 meters of the location are within the local neighborhood. One just has to look at gage park to see how that will pan out. I give it one football season (if there even is a football season) and all the WH residents will be crying foul and demanding their streets be returned to them via permit parking only during special events. There goes the 2k+ parking spaces out the window.

I live in the east end and I can tell you, there's no way I will be taking unreliable public transit into downtown hamilton or being forced to arrive at an event hours early to try and snag one of those illusive spots. I won't be attending anything at the WH.

Congratulations to city council for actually making a decision, seeing as that is going to be the only good thing that will come out of this whole mess.

[Jerry Liberty]

Looks like there will be a whole new council coming in Octomber :

[Duke]

WOW All you people who want to support a WH front have been sucked in by the Spectator.. Its cornered in, has no visibility, no access and the most important FACT: the Ticats wont play there!!!! So that means no stadium!! Get over it nobody want to own a team in a shitty brown field that will LOSE money every year.
I'll take Bob Youngs success in business over the Hamilton politician who have failed at everything they touch..
EM though not my fav. site has better futute then that lousy WH..
Why was Confederation site taken off?? Its the best site by far but Hamilton cares about green all of a sudden?? ya because all the factories and environment damages in the past has helped give me a break this is the most POORLY run city and worst is nearly half of you follow these men right off the cliff!!

[J. A. Manchurek M.Ed]

Wake up Hamilton, Mayor and Council! A new stadium downtown will be just another dead horse like Copps Colliseum. Dah! No wonder no one wants to move to Hamilton! I was a Hamiltonian and still am a Cats fan no matter how bad they have been. The East Mountain makes all the sense in the world and believe me, idiots who say the Link is at full capacity between 4 - 6:30 haven't seen Calgary's Deerfoot Trail between those times. No wonder westerners have a negative connatation about the way easterners think! The Stamps have a fantastic parking lot at McMahon and they also use light rail transit to boot. The mountain has better access for people throughout southern Ontario. Downtown does not. Copps Colliseum is a pain to get to and so will a stadium on the bay. Downtown needs to be cleaned up without a doubt, certainly clean it up but don't for a minute think that a Stadium is the answer to that problem. Mr. Mayor and Council: please consult the Mayor of Calgary about the East Calgary situation. The money has been well spent in revitalizing that area and without a Stadium.

[Darrell from Stoney Creek]

Good for you city council. You have done what is best for the public, rather than what is best for private interests. I would be ashamed of our representative if they allowed themselves to bullied by the Ti-Cats. We need to save our green space and utilize/revitalize existing impoverished paved lands. This decision by city council will initiate the clean up of toxic land in the west harbour area.

[somewheretotherightofattilathehun]

While this decision didn't take 50 years like the Red Hill Creek Expressway, it certainly took longer than neccessary.

If the City expects the Province and the Feds to assist in a sweetheart deal to keep the Cats, they are in for a very big dissappointment.

The sweetheart deal to keep the Cats will come directly from the local taxpayer. But we won't officially be told that until after the October election.

Council stuck to its guns. But will it go down with the ship?

[Justin Thyme]

The problem with politics in Hamilton is that it follows the sports model - inner takes everything, loser gets nothing, second pace is the first to loose. A city should be run on the win-win basis, where second place is still happy. Now, we get to play "winner-loser" with the velodrome. Dundas or WH? Avoid the last minute rush - pick your team and get in he first shots - its all about sports. After all, Hamilton is not called the sports city for nothing!

[Al]

What made the Tiger Cats think they could win this battle, when they have for years been losers. Talk about delusional. Take your toys and go home Mr. Young, or elsewhere for all I care. The Cats are missing a huge opportunity to have public funding pay for part of a new stadium. Nice fumble Mr. Young!

[Joe Ricottone]

Hello I am a major Ticat fan and love the city of Hamilton. Why cant anyone see that a stadium in the downtown core IS THE TICKET!! People like to make a point of saying stadiums in downtown cores don't really induce revialization- well what will having a stadium on the east mountain revitalise ? Every major city in the us has a stadium in their core- WAKE UP Bob Young!! Let him go if he has to go and we will come back o doubt one or two years later as the flying wildcats or the Tigers! or better still do as the browns did and keep the tiger cat name- it may take a few bucks but its worth it....no one should comply to a guy who does not know football as he has proven in the last seven years...he knows computers! Not football or where stadiums should be placed

[Jacson]

Andy Steven confused.

[Andy Steven]

To Dave Hallyburton (august 9th 4:38 pm)
Typical inner city whiner. You want all our tax dollars, which by the way is probably 5 times what you (rotting) core properties pay, but cannot accept that these outlying communities having been paying the majority of the city tax bill for you. We should have more say in this matter than you as it is the wealthy outlying neighbourhoods that keep you afloat.

Get your head outta your XXX and realize that without the Mountain, Ancaster, Waterdown, etc... Hamilton is nothing but a sinkhole of wasted taxpayer dollars. Please allow us out, we want it and obviously the downtown core people do too based on your useless rant.

[Dave McRae]

The correct choice for the city is the west harbour site. The Future Fund moneys would be retained and the additional costs of any other site would be negated. If the funds offered by the consortium of Tiger-Cat supporters put their monies into the pot, then are not the parking and accessability issues more easily addressed and financed. The Tiger-Cats should view this as an opportunity to address their concerns while maintaining the participation in the Pan-Am Games. If the development of a soccer franchise is envisioned by the previous commitments of the football club, then their would be two tenants for the stadium. This in turn would be a positive influence on Harper's Harpoons and McGuinty's Magpies to support both the stadium and infrustructure to make it accessible and expandable. And I see it as expandable, because it would be the potential centrepiece to the 2030 Commonwealth Games. This can all happen if all parties are truly team players and not running home with their ball when they don't get their way. The city politicians can not excuse themselves for some of their carrying-ons, but they must act in the interest of all Hamiltonians, not just the rabid Tiger-Cat fans. I was one of those starting with the 1953 team, but I was weaned off my enthusiasm by poor ownership, poor teams, and moving out of town to follow a career. I have been to one game a year for the past four years and have seen little to stir up the passions I once held for this team. And I do not fancy my second alternative - going down the QEW to root against the Argos.

[brian]

Sam Merulla is right the money isn't there even if the ticats are on board. So why is this debate even going on. Bob Young said the team wont go to either location...so why bother spending anything.

[nick]

Bob and company and the city had lots of time in the past to come up with a great solution not a good one, not a bad one. But a GREAT solution, the cats dragged their feet til mid july and then storm like little spoiled rich brats.

so all i say is NAH NAH NAH NAH hey hey hey GOOD BYE and don't let the door hit you on the butt on your way out. I 'ver seen fish do less flip flopping the you clowns have. I will build a parking lot next to any stadium the city builds that holds 6000 cars, at 20 bucks a head, i only need to fill it up 10 days out of the year for a cool million.do the math

[Patrick Moore]

I had assumed that it was a 'done deal' a long time ago, and did not pay attention, so - sorry to weigh in so late in the game.
I have been to many 'High Performance' sports venues in Canada as a track coach attending Canadian Championships, Ontario Summer Games, and have been one of a very few Hamilton coaches responsible for helping many gifted athletes, not only to compete at those venues, but internationally as well.
Hamilton taxpayers alone cannot fully support a Pan Am stadium in the long term without having a long term plan. This does not neccessarily have to include the so called 'anchor tenant' of a professional sports team.
Many of the sites that I have been to, are in cities where there is a CFL team, and not one of those teams are the 'anchor tenant'.
Instead, they could be likened to a kind of 'super community center', where there is a diverse stream of activities, depending on which sport is chosen by an individual or amateur team.
The Claude Robillard Center in Montreal's north end comes to mind, which speaking of forward thinking, was built for the 1976 Olympic Games, and has indoor and outdoor facilities to allow community use year round with a steady income stream from community memberships and hosting Provincial, National, and International events. It does require community involvement to achieve an income stream that would make such a sports venue viable, so to sit back and depend on a professional sports franchise and their 'friends' to bail Hamilton out with empty promises of fiscal responsibility for the Pan Am Stadium to be financial secure, is utterly illogical.
It takes community involvement, and working together through the next decades to ensure that we can make the best representation of Hamilton to not only Canada, but to the rest of the world.
I believe that locating the swimming pool at McMaster University was a big, big mistake for the commmunity, when it could have been centrally located with the rest of the facilities. having long term indoor and outdoor facilites, both complete with a running track, is the best option, and the location, available to all - means that it should be located very close to mass transit.
The governments have indicated that tax dollars would not be granted unless the venue were to continue on as a 'High Performance Sports Center'.
I believe that if asked for clarification, that would indicate to be for amateur sports.
The Hamilton Tiger Cats are neither an amateur sports team, nor are they a 'High Performance Sports' team. More and more citizens would agree that they are not 'professionallly' run as well.

[A-shot]

The stadium needs to be accessable and needs to be near the waterfront. With that being said, the stadium should be constructed at confederation park, where a "stadium community" can be developed, which would include shopping, restaurants and waterfront developments. As much as I love the city and the Tiger-Cats, I realize that Bob Young is a businessman who shouldnt be expected to take massive losses for the sake of having a football team in Hamilton. Eisenberger is a career civil servant, so I don't expect him to understand anything about business.

[Dodge]

Let the Cats go and try to get an NFL team. YOung has only conplained since he has been in the city. The stadium belongs in the West Harbour. All other new stadiums that I have read about are built in the downtown core. Say goodbye to the Cats and don't let the door hit them on the way out. Goodbye to bad rubbish

[asteryx]

Any regular commuter on the link, between 4:30 and 6:30pm, will notice it is already at capacity. Never mind parking at a stadium at an East Mountain site, you can stay in your car and remain parked on the link or Red Hill.

[Jackson]

Both the Cats and Comm. Cohon
have overplayed their hands.
Young is not capable of putting a deal on the table
to advance the Cats to a position of financial strength.CFL owners should their teams as a hobby,expensive yes but fun.

[peter]

what a bunch of hypocrites in this city.
welcome bob young for spending money and saving the cats.what? you don't want to lose millons more?
then get out of town you bum!

[brian simmons]

put the stadium in confederation park

[Keith]

Some in Hamilton are stuck with the image of Hamilton being a world class city.
The food banks are almost empty.
The infrastructure is crumbling.
Debt and deficits that are staggering.
You can't afford to fix the sewer system.
The roads are deteroriating.
But you have money for a stadium?
I've never met anyone in Hamilton who would choose to support professional athletes and millionaires rather than a hungry kid.
Tell the ticats to take a hike.
Tell the pan am people to go with them.
Where I live someone, who may have had a grade 8 education, planted maple trees for future generations to enjoy.
How could that person 100 years ago be so much wiser than city council who only want to give more debt as a legacy.
World class city? More like world class stupidity.

[JL]

Katz is trying to negotiate with Edmonton for a new arena. Hamilton will be used (again) to ensure Albertans saddle up and give their money to keep their hockey.

The TiCats were a bird-in-hand (that is, worth two in the bush); one would like to think the City had learned that much from the many failed attempts at getting an NLH tenant for the other great, white concrete monolith downtown.

There are MANY sites in the city worth looking at for a future stadium, in both the west and east ends of the lower city, well inside the urban boundaries and many in areas that could also use an economic "push". Many of these do NOT have the access and visibility issues of the WH site.

[Gaffers]

Cats have pulled the plug or is an easy way to get out of their financial committment to the east mountain location? Build the stadium in the west end and give a sweetheart lease deal to the public and catholic school boards as the "anchor tenants" Maybe then the taxpayers can watch fooball without the political BS.

[somewheretotherightofattilathehun]

This is getting better than the afternoon soaps!

If cutting one's nose off in spite of one's face were a professional sport, Hamilton would be the perennial league champions.

Flipping off the Ti-Cats is short sighted and indicates a complete lack of business smarts. The City has its best chance of achieving economic prosperity with both in place. Losing one, or the other, or both does not assist in making Hamilton a better place.

The City's dithering on moving forward with real downtown renewal over the past 20 years is the real culprit here.

Instead of a West Harbour stadium signalling the beginning of downtown renewal, it would have been a lot easier to sell it to everyone involved if it was the crowning acheivement of downtown renewal.

The plethora of career politicians on Hamilton City Council need to be shown the door this October. They are the one's that should be held accountable for this fiasco. Hamilton's downtown has been left to rot for the last 20 years, and that short sightedness is now causing problems.

And for those that don't care if the Ti-Cats leave, what pro sports franchise would want to re-locate here if a mediocre franchise in a third rate football league leaves town because of the City's unwillingness to compromise?

You wouldn't be able to attract a little league team here.

Maybe that's exactly what this City deserves.

[A. deVries]

Wow with the latest news. This is just like an employer saying to their unionized employees, cave in or we will lock you out or cut your jobs.

He will lose so much money next year and the rest of this year if he chooses to force the city to bend over.

[Dave Hallyburton]

How stupid do you get once one lives up the escarpment? They will answer this with i live on the mountain! Iam so much better then you!This is the crap that i have heard for over 40 years. Urban sprawl is OK as long as they have lots and lots of parking for them. As we all know in the lower city,we are looked down on as not being equal to those who live on top of a ##$%%@W@ mountain. Just remember this,the cats have always played in the true city of Hamilton not on a farmers field.Just keep on closing our schools,so you mountain folf can live with all the joys of urban sprawl and try to forget were the true city of Hamilton started. Enjoy your WHITE ELEPHANT on your MOUNTAIN!!! ps stay the #%%* out of our NORTH END!!

[Charly McLean]

Perhaps it is time to ask the real question --- Will real Canadians come to a West Harbour stadium?
As a person born in Hamilton, as a person who attended many TiCat games with Dad --- as a person who lives in Hamilton --- I really doubt whether people will go to that site.
Most of us would like to think that we would take transit, but we don't. Most of us who live within walking distance to malls drive instead of walking. Most of us take the easy way out and watch a game on TV or listen to the radio instead of getting tickets and actually going to the game.
The "Field of Dreams" concept that if we build it they will come is a shaky one to say the least. People go where there is easy access and reasonable parking. As much as we would like to think people would go to a West Harbour stadium, it is very unlikely. Right up there with people shopping downtown! It just won't happen. I talked with someone who went to fireworks for Canada Day and it took over two and a half hours to get out of the traffic and home. That person lives less than fifteen minutes from downtown. He isn't even planning on ever attending another fireworks; and says there is zero chance of him going to a stadium there. If the stadium is to be viable it must be located with easy access and good parking.We are a country of people who drive everywhere. There is also the question of air pollution --- perhaps the steel mills will not be seen from a West Harbour stadium but will the air be pure and clean and hospitable??? Hopefully, the city counsellors will think carefully before voting.
A poor choice will result in loss elections for them. They have a vested personal interest in making a financially and forward looking decision. Now is the time to ask "What will real Canadians want in a stadium here in Hamilton?

[Lettie]

If the Tiger Cats leave, can we get professional soccer? Any hope for that?

[Spek]

D. Shields:
Where did you come up with the notion that I suggested Mr. Braley 'purchased the City of Hamilton with his good works'. Get a grip! Don't you think it's time you looked at the facts before commenting?! Also, how many times have you sat on your bum to watch the TiCats play? People are just speculating about Mr. Braley's involvement and obviously have no concrete proof. No one does and to have people slam him with all that he has done for the community is just disrespectful and wrong.

[Michael A.]

Why is no one talking about the Tiger Cats connection to Osmington Inc. which is a real-estate developement company owned by billionaire David Thomson of Toronto? Is there a connection to his True North holding company and recent machinations in Winnipeg and Atlanta? Google it. Draw your own conclusions.

[A. deVries]

Additionally, Braley (owner of 25% of the CFL) giving money is laudable and much appreciated, but his philanthropy does not give him a free pass for the rest of his life.

[A. deVries]

The City Council process has been hijacked by this news of the FEds and Province withdrawing funding.

If you do not see political interference at the behest of private interest than you need to see an optometrist. At least give City COuncil the chance to screw up.

Go Bombers!!

[D. Shields]

Don't you think, Spec, that it's time you REFRESHED you comments here?
"Delusional Hamilton & Fred"
and "Don't disrespect Se. Braley" have been @ the top of this list for ages.

A LOT of people have had a LOT to say since lunchtime!

[D. Shields]

To Spek:
Are you suggesting that Sen. Braley 'purchased' the City of Hamilton with his good works?
A donation is still a donation, not a down payment agreement. (& it's also tax deductable.)

I had no idea that the GHA was up for sale...Well, you live & you learn. : {

[D. Shields]

Both Harper, & McGuinty have done this once too often! This is just G20 all over.
Sports teams do NOT run cities, even if they are owned by a Senator. If he wants to run the City, put his hat the Mayor ring. If not BUTT OUT!
Fans run Sport's teams in the only way that professional sports works, with support, & bums in the seats.
It's time to send Harper, McGiunty packing @ the polls, & their stadium packing to the next City of $uckers.

Maybe the Ti-Cats will enjoy playing @ Ivor Wynne for the next few years. If they don't, I hope the locker room door hits them in the @$$ on the way out of town, & Good Luck getting money out of Sudbury, Gander, or Harper's constituency for your next venue!

(There aren't that many places with a fan base large enough to support a CFL team. They Don't hold all the cards!)

[Spek]

Someone had to step in and tell it like it is and do what is best for the city. Our city council has a long and unimpressive history of screwing up major decisions. The West Harbour would have been another one if not for the two levels of government. To slam Senator Braley is reprehensible considering the amount of money (millions) he has donated to worthy causes here in Hamilton that enhance the lives of all people in the Hamilton community. His donations include: $5 million to St. Joseph's Healthcare for a kidney-urinary care unit and 18 operating rooms, $10 million to Hamilton Health Sciences for a cardiac, vascular and stroke research institute, and $5 million to the McMaster Athletics Centre. To have the resources available to donate such vast amounts of money to charity can only come from very successful business ventures and stable leadership. If I were in governement I would certainly listen to his opinion much more so then a bunch of people who really don't have the pedigree to make multi-million dollar decisions.

[stephen]

To all those delusional people out there including the Mayor there was never a public mandate for the west harbor site. The mayor did a lousy job of managing the entire process and embarrassed the city to the point where the higher level of government had to step in. The consultant who wrote the report for the east mountain site is probably the same consultant who wrote the report for the Via Site which that was lost. To ensure success of the East mountain site the mayor should resign.

[Spek]

I agree with Derek. Someone had to step in and tell it like it is and do what is best for the city. Our city council has a long and unimpressive history of screwing up major decisions. The West Harbour would have been another one if not for the two levels of government. To slam Senator Braley is reprehensible considering the amount of money (millions) he has donated to worthy causes here in Hamilton that enhance the lives of all people in the Hamilton community. His donations include: $5 million to St. Joseph's Healthcare for a kidney-urinary care unit and 18 operating rooms, $10 million to Hamilton Health Sciences for a cardiac, vascular and stroke research institute, and $5 million to the McMaster Athletics Centre. To have the resources available to donate such vast amounts of money to charity can only come from very successful business ventures and stable leadership. If I were in governement I would certainly listen to his opinion much more so then a bunch of people who really don't have the pedigree to make multi-million dollar decisions.

[A. deVries]

Time to withdraw our funding unless it is at the West Harbour. Snooker Young into a nasty position where he ends up with NOTHING but Ivor Wynne. He played hardball, time to give it back.

Here is what will happen. Pan Am folk move stadium to TOronto after city refuses to bend over, magically funding appears for a 30 000 seat stadium, including cash from the owner of Argos. And who owns the Argos? Senator David Braley.

Braley can explain that to the citizens of the country, as to why, dude in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan, is paying even more than initially agreed to, to fund another stadium in Toronto.

[Derek]

City council in shock!!!
Really people, it is about time someone stepped in and said enough is enough.
Our elected officials cannot make a decision by themselves.The answer for council is hire a consultant on everything.
Council has made us look bad time after time, we are the laughing stock of the country and now your upset about the federal goverment's decision? give me a break.Mayor Fred you are the worst flip flopping on everything.
Our council has no vision at all and you should all resign.
I am not going to sit here and say Bob Young is the best ever, but he knows how to get things done, something that the bunch of you should learn from.

[Jackson]

The city councillors should never support giving our money to the Cats. I endorse the third option of Hamilton withdrawing
from the Pan Am games and using the Future Fund monies for downtown renewal.

[L. Ellis]

The East Mountain plan is a waste of tax payer's money. Urban sprawl is a proven blight and the fact that Dianni is sniffing around this festering mess tells me all I need to know about what will happen if Big Business alone controls the outcome of this debate.

Bob Young sat right behind me at a pre-season game this year. If he didn't see the same sparse numbers that I did - If he doesn't think those numbers would improve in a beautiful waterfront setting - then he's more short-sighted that I would have thought possible. (I already know that I will never attend another Ticat game unless he modifies his tone.)

Bob, I get that you don't care about the City of Hamilton or neighbourhood remediation, and that only money in YOUR pocket can talk to YOU, but I think Hamiltonians are more forward-thinking than you realize.

One person controlling the will of an entire city never results in a good return on investment so if you're telling us we must give you total control or you'll leave, I'm guessing we'll be sad...and then we'll help you to pack.

Total control didn't happen for the Penguin. It didn't happen for the Joker and I don't see what super qualities you're bringing to the table that makes you think that it'll happen for you.

[POLYTRICKS]

West Harbour or NO STADIUM.

The feds/province and Braley can go ahead and build THEIR Stadium for THEIR CFL TEAM on THEIR vacant piece of green field...just don't plan on using a cent of OUR future fund dollars...we've got city building plans for that money. And, don't expect Hamilton will pay for any of the related infrastructure upgrades that will be required for YOUR stadium...you can have that too.

The West Harbour site won. Mayor/councillors...for the sake of our collective self respect, vote West Harbour Aug 10th and send a strong message to Harper, Sen BraIey (the Young / Cohon ace in the hole who as a CFL team owner is showing himself to be just another private interest concerned strictly about his own welfare vs Hamilton's future...can you say CONFLICT OF INTEREST), and our shameful lying MPPs...get lost and stay out of our business. Stuff your Pan Am games and YOUR stadium.

[Peter]

Once again, I am reading comments from the vocal minority. All of you, including the mayor, should stop whining and accept the best and most common sense site for a new stadium. West Harbour was just a wrong choice from the get go. Poor poor road infrastructure, no parking and no visibilty. And Marc...you point out that this decision was made to make Bob Young wealthier. Too funny and get to know the facts before you open your mouth so to speak. Mr. Young has lost close to 30 million and he wants a stadium that will help him recoup his losses. He has put his money where his mouth is and has kept the TiCats in Hamilton. I bet most of the people who want the West Harbour site complain about the HST and higher gas prices which takes money out of their pockets. Not even close to the amount MR. Young has lost. Maybe all of you harbour supporters should show real support and collect 30 million and give it to Mr. Young to say thanks for keeping the TiCats here. Then you would have a say and a small amount of credibility. So all of you go to your West Harbour rally tomorrow during the same time the TiCats are playing. You people are real supporters...of hypocracy that is! Oh, and to revitalize downtown a stadium is not the solution. People, and lots of them, moving into the area is.

[Uncle Joe]

Why are Freddie and his sidekicks pushing so hard for the WH site, what exactly is in it for him and his sidekicks who support the WH site. I don't ever recall being asked what my opinion was about where it should be, my neighbors also were not asked, nor the many friends I have living across Hamilton, so how can Freddie say that all Hamiltonians prefer the WH site when all of Hamilton's residents didn't even have a say? So come on Freddie, be honest with us and tell us what's in this deal for you???
As for revitalizing the downtown core, you need a bulldozer, not a stadium.

[Nathan Fleet]

I've read about all the wonderful things that will happen to the surrounding area if the stadium is put in the West Harbour but what will they put in the stadium?

[dave]

The Mayor has proposed a West Harbour location for a new stadium. Like Copps Coliseum and Hamilton Place, people will flock to the downtown core, buying up housing and starting numerous businesses so that they can be close to the throngs of people going to the stadium. Moreover, with the conversion of one way streets to two way, most people would love to be in the congestion and pollution that snarled traffic brings. A West Harbour stadium = no Ticats = no Pan Am Games = no money to remediate the lands down there. This is a complicated math problem and when you think about it, who amongst council could figure this out?

[somewheretotherightofattilathehun]

Stick a fork in the West Harbour site, it's done.

Hamilton Council didn't do it's homework. They need to accept the decision of the Province and Feds, and work WITH them on possible West Harbour site development. If they decide to put up a fight on the issue, they risk losing any possible future assistance on West Harbour development.

The big winner in this decision is mayoral hopeful Larry DiIanni. His non-committal response to the stadium question at his campaign launch indcates he already knew what was coming. He didn't alienate the West Harbour supporters by saying either way.

This decision might flush out a few new mayoral candidates. Let's hope so.

[davil]

Will cancel my season tickets after this season and will burn the remaining tickets for this year. Bob Young has held the city for ranson and won, but he has lost his fans.

[damian]

How shameful of both provincial and federal governments. I guess all that blubber from governments about urban intensification and green economies is all hog-wash; however, it's great for electioneering. I wonder if Senator Braley (also 25% CFL owner and Bob Young buddy) had a hand in this sham?

I vote to stay with Ivor Wynne and will think hard about renewing my TiCat season tickets and who I vote for in both provincial and federal elections.

Kudos to the Mayor for his efforts!

[MD]

Im so disgusted with this whole thing. It really is all about private interest. I can tell I or my family will never go to another ticats game again.
These idiots cant see further than their nose.
Not only are they doing a disservice to Hamilton and its people, they have changed everything that the original bid for the games was based on, the dishonesty and power mongering is disgusting!!

[Marc]

I can't believe the Fed's and the Province. Didn't they say it was up to the citizens of Hamilton to decide the where the stadium should go!!! Obviously Bob Young and the CFL have friends in high places and are trying to save face after threatening to leave Hamilton and that threat backfired. We all know it was an empty threat, they have no where else to go... Hamiltonians should not be bullied this way, we should forget the stadium completely, use our money for Hamilton Development and interested only and not cater to the bidding the the rich (Bob Young). Shame on the Fed's and Province for not looking after the interests of its own citizens. Helping the CFL save face and making Bob Young wealthier seems to be of greater interest.

[Michael Allgoewer]

Now that the Feds and the Province have nailed the West Harbour coffin shut, council needs to listen to Mr. Merulla and shut this whole process down. Without the track and field events there is no need for a Pan-Am stadium in Hamilton. As for The Tiger cats, they operate on a business model, which means bankruptcy is always a viable option. So be it.

[Mark]

i am tired of my pertinent comments being censured on this board. I have asked or said nothing inflammatory, used no foul language or degraded anyone else. I have brought up some very relevant points and question, maybe too relevant for the moderator. What is the problem?